[Flokki]

Found my 4 month old LV (1200 Km on the clock) completely dead without any error message. Needed to have it trucked to the dealer which happened very expediently. That was mid-week last week.
It took the dealer’s Service Dept. a week to get to look at the bike as their one and only trained LW tech was on vacation and then sick. They have no support contingency in place...
Service replaced the original 12V battery with a new one, but the bike then started a process of “murdering” ( as it was expressed to me) the replacement battery, So they need further investigation into the matter, and cannot release the LW as it could go dead at any time, again.
Upon HD request, Support sent some “system codes” to HD for further analysis and advise. No ETA was provided to me for when to expect the bike to be fixed.

I bought the LV - brand new - mid Dec. 2020, and it had performed very well, and I was over the moon until last week. This present service experience is quickly chipping away on my „hot love affair“ with the LW, the local dealer and their support dept.
For a bike costing approximately Can $38K I would expect better at any level.

... to be continued ...

 

[BHigerd]

I almost hate writing this, but do you have any Lemon Laws in place in your province of Canada to cover you if the repair becomes a repetitive issue? The laws are different state to state in the US, but if the same item requires repeat repair (usually 3 times) within XX (?) days/months, you can get a full refund. Knowledge of your rights can be powerful when dealing with service centers / management.

 

[Flokki]

I almost hate writing this, but do you have any Lemon Laws in place in your province of Canada to cover you if the repair becomes a repetitive issue? The laws are different state to state in the US, but if the same item requires repeat repair (usually 3 times) within XX (?) days/months, you can get a full refund. Knowledge of your rights can be powerful when dealing with service centers / management.

Hi BHigerd,
to be honest I don‘t know about any „lemon laws“ in my Province (...it“s British Columbia...), but had thought about them.
I went to my HD dealer yesterday after posting my write-up and they agreed (without further ado) to provide me with a LW loaner for the time of the repair. They still have quite a bit of a LW inventory and negative publicity would not exactly promote the bike in a small market like ours. I will look into the consumer protection laws in the near future to find out where I stand...

 

[BHigerd]

Hope it never comes to that, but we had a saying in the Freightliner Truck manufacturing world: "Never buy a vehicle assembled on a Monday or Friday." Not sure how much that held true, but people's minds drift.

Cool they're lending you a loaner. Burn up those tires.

 

[Flokki]

Yep, I surly hope this is a mid-week production. As per ”burning tires” it is my intent, but not so much up to me as to stricter travel restrictions that are now in effect due to COVID...

 

[tcypher]

I agree with BHigerd.... despite my love of Harley Davidson, it's also an expensive investment additionally down time for an investment that is much more utilized during a few months of the year for many (despite the occasional wet ride) is just not ok.

I was down for 3 weeks to get my belt replaced (due to seeming parts availability) and I live on my bike. So, while I don't have a lemon (fingers crossed), the down time for that (for me) is pretty severe. I absolutely HATE being without my bike. I ride ALL year, excluding snow on the ground. So to not have it for three weeks was a real crap deal and my dealer would not provide a loaner either. :/ *glad you were able to get that!

Good luck with all of it. Continue to keep us posted.

 

[Flokki]

I agree with BHigerd.... despite my love of Harley Davidson, it's also an expensive investment additionally down time for an investment that is much more utilized during a few months of the year for many (despite the occasional wet ride) is just not ok.

I was down for 3 weeks to get my belt replaced (due to seeming parts availability) and I live on my bike. So, while I don't have a lemon (fingers crossed), the down time for that (for me) is pretty severe. I absolutely HATE being without my bike. I ride ALL year, excluding snow on the ground. So to not have it for three weeks was a real crap deal and my dealer would not provide a loaner either. :/ *glad you were able to get that!

Good luck with all of it. Continue to keep us posted.

Yeah, I agree.
For the duration of the repair my HD dealer agreed to provide a courtesy loaner LW that I’ll have unrestricted use of and that will stay in my garage until my LW is repaired. Will pick-up the loaner in about one hour. This makes me think that the net loss of my LW will only be what I have experienced so far.
I am cautiously optimistic.

What I am more concerned about is the nature of the problem with the LW (did you watch „Long Way Up“ ???) apparently „murdering“ (as expressed by the dealership’s Service Manager) note only one, but possibly a second 12V battery without any clear indication why. Having to go back to the factory for further troubleshooting and being provided with no ETA for a resolution is a serious problem to me. I have managed service departments in other industries for about 20 years, and this was never acceptable from an end-user perspectiv, neither is a single-point-of-failure with just one trained tech on staff. Covid, or not, this is NOT acceptable and HD needs to adapt their training requirements/offerings and adapt to the changed situation. As servicing a motorbike is non-essential work in a COVID context, dealerships in Canada are facing a closed border and cannot send techs to the US for training.
Maybe there are gremlins still living in the/a production LW after all the years of development and testing We’ll see how much commitment HD now demonstrates to de-bug their product, even though my name is not Ewan McGregor, or Charley Boorman.

 

[tcypher]

... just one trained tech on staff. Covid, or not, this is NOT acceptable and HD needs to adapt their training requirements/offerings and adapt to the changed situation. As servicing a motorbike is non-essential work in a COVID context, dealerships in Canada are facing a closed border and cannot send techs to the US for training.
...

indeed, there is also only one person on staff at the dealers near me (so, while three total).. still only one per shop.
I'm no engineer, but having purchased the service, electrical and parts books, I feel I'm more educated than even that person (sometimes)... as I can identify and point out things to help expedite the troubleshooting and repair. But, eventually, these solo individuals are going to get tired of being the only one, and (as you mentioned).... when they go on break (vacation, sick, whatever)... we're stuck waiting.

While I want to use my warranty for every reason, it's the only thing holding me back right now from just troubleshooting as much on my own as possible (to avoid breaking anything during an unplug or whatever.)

When that's up... I will do everything I can to get her back on the road or repair first and then bring it in if it's just something I don't have the tools or expertise for.

It'll also enable me to further customize, knowing I won't be voiding a valuable warranty.

 

[Flokki]

Update —-
The dealership, with help from HD, has identified the issue with my LW: The bike’s 12V charging „module“ needs to be replaced, as it kills batteries (2 so far). This charging module is - of course - not in stock locally, and we do not have an ETA for its arrival as it stands. It was ordered late in the day yesterday (Friday, Apr. 23.) Realistically, I am expecting it’ll take another 10-15 days to receive the spare, have it installed and tested.

I am using the loaner in the meantime .

 

[DrewHB]

Well, it happened to me too. OBC dead. Plugged in the bike last week and got an alert message that said something like “charger fault” and it wouldn’t charge. Luckily I had enough charge to get it to HD. They have had it a week and just confirmed the failure...now it’s two more weeks to get a replacement. I will be hitting them up tomorrow for a loaner. Interesting thing is that I haven’t had the 12V batter issue, but all seem to be related. Has anyone else had an OBC failure that tossed the same message I got?

 

[Flokki]

Oh boy, is there a pattern?
My bike is in the shop now for 2 weeks with still NO indication when the replacement circuit will arrive and installed... HD must know this problem and should make d%^m sure they have enough replacement circuits/modules available to service all LW's. This is pretty unacceptable, and make me wonder how smart the move was to buy a Livewire? Don't get me wrong, I love the LW, but I am not prepared to put up with this "shit", especially not as this is my first (...and probably last...) venture into the HOG world after substantial hesitation. I NEVER considered any Harley machine a well designed and reliable bike in the first place.
Livewire - case in point!

 

[DrewHB]

Definitely a pattern. I’m going to push the dealer on this. It is most certainly a known issue. There are NOT that many LWs out there, and it sounds like a large number are having some sort of OBC issue. Either a firmware issue, hardware issue, both, level 1 charging issue, level 3 charging issue...etc. There are posts all over this forum with some type of issue along these lines. HD must be watching this forum, even if they don’t respond. Jochen has made it clear that electric is a big part of his plan, so they need to keep this moving in the correct direction!
I am 100% in agreement on the “should I really have bought the LW?” I love the bike and I really LOVE pushing the technology envelope. I also fully understand that being cutting edge on the tech side comes with an unknown number of issues that we will help resolve, but I expect great service and support if we are helping to develop this product line for HD. Still questioning my sanity
I have a demo ride of the PanAm tomorrow and I’m not sure I’m up for helping develop another HD product. Ugggg.

 

[Oldun]

Sorry to hear about your woes, Flokki. Would you (and perhaps others) mind sharing with us if you've always charged at home, or often DC-fast-charged at stations?

Clearly, the long-distance gurus on this board will have charged at fast-charge stations so that alone cannot be a cause (I assume, being profoundly ignorant of the potential for problems if the 12V battery does not like cohabiting with the RESS while a fast charge is going in...)

...but the reason I ask, is because a Jaguar EV owner near me had almost the same problem when he switched from always charging overnight at his house, to fast-charging at his workplace. He and I wondered aloud - does the onboard module get used to one form of charging?

Disclaimer: I do medicine, not mechanics. I am yer basic clueless electrical amateur. Except if you need defibrillating. Which I hope you don't

 

[databoom]

Found my 4 month old LV (1200 Km on the clock) completely dead without any error message. Needed to have it trucked to the dealer which happened very expediently. That was mid-week last week.
It took the dealer’s Service Dept. a week to get to look at the bike as their one and only trained LW tech was on vacation and then sick. They have no support contingency in place...
Service replaced the original 12V battery with a new one, but the bike then started a process of “murdering” ( as it was expressed to me) the replacement battery, So they need further investigation into the matter, and cannot release the LW as it could go dead at any time, again.
Upon HD request, Support sent some “system codes” to HD for further analysis and advise. No ETA was provided to me for when to expect the bike to be fixed.

I bought the LV - brand new - mid Dec. 2020, and it had performed very well, and I was over the moon until last week. This present service experience is quickly chipping away on my „hot love affair“ with the LW, the local dealer and their support dept.
For a bike costing approximately Can $38K I would expect better at any level.

... to be continued ...

I would be interested in the answer to Oldun's questions and would also ask, what after market accessories / wiring has been done to the machine?

 

[BHigerd]

If known, do you guys who've had this problem share a common production date range? Troubleshooting stuff when with Freightliner Trucks, that would be the typical first question.

 

[DrewHB]

I have only charged at home, never used a fast charge.
Zero aftermarket accessories or wiring.
Production number 801875

 

[BHigerd]

"Production number 801875." Does HD have a website where dates are assigned? All I could find was some article that they sold 3,000 in 2019 worldwide. Nothing I can find on dates of production linked to production numbers. Maybe the VIN has it encoded?

 

[tcypher]

"Production number 801875." Does HD have a website where dates are assigned? All I could find was some article that they sold 3,000 in 2019 worldwide. Nothing I can find on dates of production linked to production numbers. Maybe the VIN has it encoded?

where's the production number located?
All I have is the badge 14/500

 

[DrewHB]

Best I can tell there isn’t a date encoded in the VIN (my research shows that the last 6 digits are the production number)...of course I have been wrong a few times before

 

[tcypher]

Best I can tell there isn’t a date encoded in the VIN (my research shows that the last 6 digits are the production number)...of course I have been wrong a few times before

I wonder where that lines up with pre-production models... since they are indicating badge numbers are the off the line numbers.

Mine is : 800228
despite 14/500 (marketing?)

• I try and stick to the 1 DCF per 4 slow charge rules. *obviously challenging when traveling long distances.
• I charge at home mostly, however, I have charged at numerous 110/120v outlets in my area not just home

** one of those being a 100+ year old house where the electrical has only been updated to one outlet... took forever to find a grounded one.

• I do use the DCF chargers pretty regularly on the weekend, as those are my longer ride days.
• I never let me bike sit below 30% or above 70% - the only time it's outside those ranges are pre-ride (above 70%) or pre-DCF for a long ride (below 30%).

** I have my bike on a smart switch, so it only charges to 100% pre-long ride right before I leave (say switched on 4 hours before - based on SOC % to full)

• I have a heated gear plug and HDMCs Spectra Glo LEDs (both installed by HDMC techs and NOT to the 12v, to the RESS via a jumper.)
• I do occasionally get the red triangle ! - but it's cleared with a restart... have not figured out why yet. It has yet to be an obvious issue.
• I have had three (known) firmware updates to the bike. If there have been others, they were not made known to me during service.
• I have ridden my bike to 0% and beyond several times... with no obvious issues.
• I do NOT use a trickle charger on this bike for the 12v as warned against by the manual, service and HDMC

Current mileage - 11,422
Current SOC - 69%

Hope some of that helps with isolating similarities.