Livewire Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone,

Troy Siahaan here. I'm the Road Test Editor at Motorcycle.com, and last week I was in Portland, Oregon to be among the first group of people to ride the 2020 Livewire. You can check out my review, if you haven't already, right here.

If you have any questions about the bike or the experience, ask away and I'll do my best to answer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Hi Troy. I want to know why, if it's using level 3 DCFS, it can't charger faster than 1C. The stations are clearly capable of delivering a lot more, and the Energica bikes are charging twice as fast. What gives?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Of course, the first question out of the box is one that stumps me. Instead of guessing, I'll forward this question on to someone at Harley in hopes they get back to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
To be fair I didn't actually expect you to be able to field this one, but it is a question I have for the H-D engineers. And I do feel it's important.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
63 Posts
Hey Troy, did it take you a while to get used to riding the LiveWire or did it feel like riding any other gas-powered bike?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Hey Troy, did it take you a while to get used to riding the LiveWire or did it feel like riding any other gas-powered bike?
Hey Bobby. Having ridden electric motorcycles before, it didn't really take much time to get used to riding the Livewire. In fact, even if you've never ridden electric before, the learning curve isn't very steep. Since you don't have a clutch or gears to shift through, it's literally twist-and-go. The few differences are:

- The lack of exhaust sound. It's not that electrics are quiet. The sound of the exhaust is replaced by the whine of the motor, the friction of the belt spinning, (depending on your speed) nature around you, and even the sound of the brake pads touching the discs once you squeeze the lever.

- The lack of heat. Some gas bikes are worse than others, but if you've ridden a gas bike that just spews exhaust heat at you when you're at a stop, you'll appreciate the utter lack of heat on an electric.

- The lack of vibration. Again, some gas bikes are worse than others (especially gas bikes without an internal counterbalancer), but comparatively speaking, electrics are smoooooth at the bars.

- Instantaneous torque! On a gas bike you have to slip the clutch to get moving. With an electric, just twist and hang on – that's a lot of torque available the moment you ask for it.

Hope that answers your question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Did Harley show guys like you from the media any cut aways of the Livewire's battery and electrical powertrain/drivetrain? Hoping to gain insight on its overall build.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Hi Troy. I want to know why, if it's using level 3 DCFS, it can't charger faster than 1C. The stations are clearly capable of delivering a lot more, and the Energica bikes are charging twice as fast. What gives?
Here's the answer I got, directly from Harley-Davidson:

"At low battery SOC, the LiveWire will charge at 90A (1.5C) and step down to 60A (1C). This profile was developed to optimize performance over the life of the product. Charge rates are based on a combination of cell chemistry, targeted battery design life, and warranty duration."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Did Harley show guys like you from the media any cut aways of the Livewire's battery and electrical powertrain/drivetrain? Hoping to gain insight on its overall build.
Cutaways? No, but they did have individual pieces like the battery and motor on display. Was there something specific about the architecture you wanted to know?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Here's the answer I got, directly from Harley-Davidson:

"At low battery SOC, the LiveWire will charge at 90A (1.5C) and step down to 60A (1C). This profile was developed to optimize performance over the life of the product. Charge rates are based on a combination of cell chemistry, targeted battery design life, and warranty duration."
First off, thank you so much for checking into that and getting a response! I didn't expect you to get an answer. It still doesn't add up though, mathematically. If it kept the 1C rate from 0-80 that would be 40 minutes anyway so I'm not sure where the 1.5C factors in. Second, and more interestingly, it looks like H-D is saying it's a 60Ah battery pack and it's 13.7kWh nominal. So, 13700 / 60 = 228.3 Volts is in the operating range. The minimum for CCS charging is 200V, and the charge rates get weaker the lower the voltage.

This could mean... hang on. Oh man if the lowest SOC on the bike is around 200, and someone drains their LiveWire all the way empty, there's a chance they'd have to wall charge it before the CCS will accept it and fill it back up again. It also means potentially that because the voltage is so low the stations just flat-out can't deliver. So, more than likely, the bike starts at 60A and as the voltage rises the station becomes able to deliver more power until voltage cutback at ~80%.

Fun
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Just found this thread...

A simple initial question... Is something off with the battery range? Harley says they have a 15.5kWh (13.6kWh) battery and get 70 miles at 70 mph. However, Energica gets 70 miles at 70 mph with a 13.4kWh (11.7kWh) battery and Zero gets 82 miles at 70 mph with a 14.4kWh (12.6kWh) battery. If you do the math, the Zero is basically saying they get the same as the Energica (70 at 70 if they had a 13kWh battery). So both competitors seem to have similar battery-to-range efficiencies.

So that means that the Harley is roughly loosing 15% somewhere from battery to the ground. Is there any explanation as to the performance loss of the Harley Livewire drivetrain compared to Zero and Energica? I.E. If the Harley Livewire performed with the same efficiency as the competition, it should be getting closer to 90-95 miles at 70 mph.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Just found this thread...

A simple initial question... Is something off with the battery range? Harley says they have a 15.5kWh (13.6kWh) battery and get 70 miles at 70 mph. However, Energica gets 70 miles at 70 mph with a 13.4kWh (11.7kWh) battery and Zero gets 82 miles at 70 mph with a 14.4kWh (12.6kWh) battery. If you do the math, the Zero is basically saying they get the same as the Energica (70 at 70 if they had a 13kWh battery). So both competitors seem to have similar battery-to-range efficiencies.

So that means that the Harley is roughly loosing 15% somewhere from battery to the ground. Is there any explanation as to the performance loss of the Harley Livewire drivetrain compared to Zero and Energica? I.E. If the Harley Livewire performed with the same efficiency as the competition, it should be getting closer to 90-95 miles at 70 mph.
That's a good question, and I think it comes down to the tests used to reach those numbers. Before going any farther, I want to make it clear I'm NOT an expert in this field – in fact, I fully admit I have a LOT to learn when it comes to EVs and testing procedures. However, if I remember correctly, the 70 miles at 70 mph figure for the Livewire was reached using MIC testing procedures. Zero (and I believe Energica, too, but not certain) use SAE standards for their mileage claims. I'm thinking this likely accounts for at least some of the discrepancy you're seeing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
First off, thank you so much for checking into that and getting a response! I didn't expect you to get an answer. It still doesn't add up though, mathematically. If it kept the 1C rate from 0-80 that would be 40 minutes anyway so I'm not sure where the 1.5C factors in. Second, and more interestingly, it looks like H-D is saying it's a 60Ah battery pack and it's 13.7kWh nominal. So, 13700 / 60 = 228.3 Volts is in the operating range. The minimum for CCS charging is 200V, and the charge rates get weaker the lower the voltage.

This could mean... hang on. Oh man if the lowest SOC on the bike is around 200, and someone drains their LiveWire all the way empty, there's a chance they'd have to wall charge it before the CCS will accept it and fill it back up again. It also means potentially that because the voltage is so low the stations just flat-out can't deliver. So, more than likely, the bike starts at 60A and as the voltage rises the station becomes able to deliver more power until voltage cutback at ~80%.

Fun
Honestly, I didn't expect to get an answer either! Nonetheless, your analysis is very interesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Cutaways? No, but they did have individual pieces like the battery and motor on display. Was there something specific about the architecture you wanted to know?
I was hoping to get insight on its build quality, more/less what guys like engineering explained goes through.
Being the first time HD is getting into EV's, everyone is skeptical.

Not a cheap bike either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hi. I just ordered a LiveWire in Toronto. The dealership has 6 allotted to it and four have been sold. Anyway, I understand that there will be some equipment options but I have not seen any detailed information as to what will be offered. Might you have any? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Hi. I just ordered a LiveWire in Toronto. The dealership has 6 allotted to it and four have been sold. Anyway, I understand that there will be some equipment options but I have not seen any detailed information as to what will be offered. Might you have any? Thanks.
Congrats
What are dealers charging for these In Toronto?
Won't be surprised if you had to pay a mark up with allocations so low, unless i'm over estimating demand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Hi. I just ordered a LiveWire in Toronto. The dealership has 6 allotted to it and four have been sold. Anyway, I understand that there will be some equipment options but I have not seen any detailed information as to what will be offered. Might you have any? Thanks.
Congrats
What are dealers charging for these In Toronto?
Won't be surprised if you had to pay a mark up with allocations so low, unless i'm over estimating demand.
The price is CAD$37,250.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Figured it would be somewhere around that.
Shouldn't be a problem for Harley to sell them, lots of people have no problem paying well into the 5-figure range for supersport bikes.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top