The new CEO, Jochen Zeitz, is from the group that overpriced the Livewire. If they come out with electric bicycles they will be overpriced also. The cellphone generation is not interested in motorcycles. Not much Harley can do as the core riders are getting older and will not be riding much longer. As for EV motorcycles, once the Asian companies come out with their models expect them to be priced less and blow past HD.
LiveWire at risk?
I sincerely hope not...but with the MoCo struggling to find a path it is a concern. The new CEO was a proponent of electric bikes early on and I hope he sticks to this parallel line. Especially since it looks like Indian is getting back into this space. I am not sure what to think, as most seem lukewarm on this path. Given the huge demand for bicycles and altering traffic patterns for bicycles in cities around the world, to me it is a more natural progression to an electric bicycle or motorcycle than a traditional motorcycle and provides an excellent gateway experience.
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I look at the Livewire as a step towards something different for H-D. It's a really cool offering, not like the gas Honda I had to buy when younger in school and needed cheap transportation. Personally, I think the speed at which H-D is adjusting has never been faster. They built a USB plug into my 2018 Fat Bob; H-D of the past would not have done that on a Fat Bob. I personally don't see H-D going away until a lot of other businesses do first, but I'm sure there will be challenges ahead, for them, their competitors, and for us.
To be in the business that HD is in, motorcycle manufacturing, they are in the worst possible condition compared to their competitors. Their competition is in way better financial situation than HD due to the fact of being part of a big company which produces more the just motorcycles. Honda, BMW, Yamaha,Kawasaki,etc, I'm sure we can name other products they manufacture.HD they maybe can sell a ton more expensive t-shirts./s Seeing the whole motorcycle industry is in a slump and not improving soon HD will be one of the first to go under.I look at the Livewire as a step towards something different for H-D. It's a really cool offering, not like the gas Honda I had to buy when younger in school and needed cheap transportation. Personally, I think the speed at which H-D is adjusting has never been faster. They built a USB plug into my 2018 Fat Bob; H-D of the past would not have done that on a Fat Bob. I personally don't see H-D going away until a lot of other businesses do first, but I'm sure there will be challenges ahead, for them, their competitors, and for us.
Manufacturing motorcycles right now is definitely not the same as toilet paper, or food. My belief, H-D will ride this out. They've established the US name-brand motorcycle (no one in our lifetimes will replace), H-D financial services is still profitable, H-D actually makes good products, and the US gov't has a history of bailing out iconic American manufacturing institutions, when needed. I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect it's an opportunity for H-D to restructure and maybe even re-invent Itself a bit. I have a friend who can't wait for the Pan America to come out. A lighter, leaner, technologically adroit, team of profound engineers, business minds... can find their way through. They've done it before.
In an ironic twist, some news agencies are reporting that there's a growing backlog and demand in motorcycle training courses for new students throughout the US. Some of that is certainly related to COVID-19 cancelling/postponing classes, but it leaves hope motorcycles in general may become more prevalent.
In an ironic twist, some news agencies are reporting that there's a growing backlog and demand in motorcycle training courses for new students throughout the US. Some of that is certainly related to COVID-19 cancelling/postponing classes, but it leaves hope motorcycles in general may become more prevalent.
HD has already begun to restructure. More layoff expected into next year.Manufacturing motorcycles right now is definitely not the same as toilet paper, or food. My belief, H-D will ride this out. They've established the US name-brand motorcycle (no one in our lifetimes will replace), H-D financial services is still profitable, H-D actually makes good products, and the US gov't has a history of bailing out iconic American manufacturing institutions, when needed. I could certainly be wrong, but I suspect it's an opportunity for H-D to restructure and maybe even re-invent Itself a bit. I have a friend who can't wait for the Pan America to come out. A lighter, leaner, technologically adroit, team of profound engineers, business minds... can find their way through. They've done it before.
In an ironic twist, some news agencies are reporting that there's a growing backlog and demand in motorcycle training courses for new students throughout the US. Some of that is certainly related to COVID-19 cancelling/postponing classes, but it leaves hope motorcycles in general may become more prevalent.
Harley-Davidson To Lay Off 500 Employees This Year As Part Of Turnaround Plan | Carscoops
Harley-Davidson sales have declined since 2015 as its baby-boomer customer base ages
www.carscoops.com
As for the Pan America, expect it to be another flop like the Livewire. Have to give credit to HD for being the first major out with an electric bike. With the Pan America HD will be competing with an abundance of adventure bikes in the market. Expect an over weight over priced motorcycle along the HD lines.
By restructuring, I mean more. The layoffs were probably coming anyway. H-D wasn't lean going into a turbulent world economy, which started before COVID-19.
As for Livewire being a “flop,” I think we’re way too early in this process to make that statement. In the world of electric motorcycles currently on the market, BMW is the only other big player to throw chips on the table. Coming from a technology transfer background, I’ve seen less useful technologies make a fortune, as well as obvious winners lose big. I provided tech transfer services for the US DOE, Freightliner Trucks, and Clemson University, and it’s amazing watching the transfer of research and ingenuity to the marketplace. H-D has won a victory with the Livewire already, no matter what happens next.
As for the pending Pan America, you may be right. But my friend, who loves that style bike, thinks it’s going to be his next adventure bike. He already expects it will be one of the more expensive versions when it makes the market.
H-D is in a challenging time, but they have the ability to get through it. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have bought two Harleys within the last 24 months.
As for Livewire being a “flop,” I think we’re way too early in this process to make that statement. In the world of electric motorcycles currently on the market, BMW is the only other big player to throw chips on the table. Coming from a technology transfer background, I’ve seen less useful technologies make a fortune, as well as obvious winners lose big. I provided tech transfer services for the US DOE, Freightliner Trucks, and Clemson University, and it’s amazing watching the transfer of research and ingenuity to the marketplace. H-D has won a victory with the Livewire already, no matter what happens next.
As for the pending Pan America, you may be right. But my friend, who loves that style bike, thinks it’s going to be his next adventure bike. He already expects it will be one of the more expensive versions when it makes the market.
H-D is in a challenging time, but they have the ability to get through it. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have bought two Harleys within the last 24 months.
What BMW electric motorcycle are you talking about? I'm aware of their electric mopeds or scooters sold in Europe. But no motorcycle along the lines of Zero, Energica or Harley.By restructuring, I mean more. The layoffs were probably coming anyway. H-D wasn't lean going into a turbulent world economy, which started before COVID-19.
As for Livewire being a “flop,” I think we’re way too early in this process to make that statement. In the world of electric motorcycles currently on the market, BMW is the only other big player to throw chips on the table. Coming from a technology transfer background, I’ve seen less useful technologies make a fortune, as well as obvious winners lose big. I provided tech transfer services for the US DOE, Freightliner Trucks, and Clemson University, and it’s amazing watching the transfer of research and ingenuity to the marketplace. H-D has won a victory with the Livewire already, no matter what happens next.
As for the pending Pan America, you may be right. But my friend, who loves that style bike, thinks it’s going to be his next adventure bike. He already expects it will be one of the more expensive versions when it makes the market.
H-D is in a challenging time, but they have the ability to get through it. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have bought two Harleys within the last 24 months.
"BMW C Evolution Electric Motorcycle" does indeed look like a moped, but they call it a motorcycle. BMW's next offering, according to press releases, hopes to compete in the same class with the Livewire, within the next 5 years. H-D did something different and risky, and we'll find out how this risk-reward works out for them.
I think you have your BMW names mixed up. The Vision DC Roadster is their true E motorcycle. As you say, we may see it for sale in the near future."BMW C Evolution Electric Motorcycle" does indeed look like a moped, but they call it a motorcycle. BMW's next offering, according to press releases, hopes to compete in the same class with the Livewire, within the next 5 years. H-D did something different and risky, and we'll find out how this risk-reward works out for them.
BMW boss says no electric motorcycles for 5 years
BMW Motorrad boss Dr. Markus Schramm said that there would possibly be BMW electric motorcycles coming within the next five year
BMW does call the C Evolution a scooter.
BMW might double C evolution scooter production
Last year BMW produced 1,700 e-scooters at the factory in Berlin Spandau and now the plant will introduce a second shift to double its production.
I read that blog by the BMW CEO as well, specific to the model they’ve already shown at the expos. Tells me either they don’t care any more than the rest of the big petroleum-based car manufacturers to go electric and cut into their profits from established engineering designs, or they haven’t figured it out yet. The electric BMW motorcycle/scooter being sold today (source for me was BMW’s website) can only go up to 70 miles in the city. H-D has doubled that, and on their first release. I doubt we’ll see eye-to-eye on what Elon Musk and others are doing to shake-up an industry that has no interest in changing, but H-D and Mr. Musk before H-D, are changing the world. To me, an environmental engineer, I’m glad H-D took the risk on the Livewire. And I hope we’re all looking back in a few years talking about how H-D turned the motorcycle world upside down, knowing there will be plenty of room for their gas-powered V-Twins for many, many years to come.
Don't know what your basing your thoughts that car manufacturers don't care about EVs. They will be forced to cut down on CO2 emissions by government regulations already on the books for the future. Since we've been on BMW, what are their plans? They've have said they plan to take their whole lineup all-electric (BEV). Their projections show at least 7 million BMW EVs on the road within 10 years and 4.6 million of those BEVs.So I can see their motorcycles going electric with-in 5 years.
As for the US, GM and Ford have stated going electric also. GM has their BEV Hummer coming out next. Ford has invested 11.5B dollars so far in EVs. On the books BEV F-150 and Transit vans for 2022 and the Mustang MME starting deliveries this December.
Now for HD. Yes they came out first with the Livewire but as soon as the Asian builders come out with their EVs expect them to be cheaper and just as good on stats. Plus they have a lineup for all types riders. Already showing off electric dirt bikes for younger people. Hope the best for HD but with their lineup I can see a very expensive touring bike if they survive.
As for the US, GM and Ford have stated going electric also. GM has their BEV Hummer coming out next. Ford has invested 11.5B dollars so far in EVs. On the books BEV F-150 and Transit vans for 2022 and the Mustang MME starting deliveries this December.
Now for HD. Yes they came out first with the Livewire but as soon as the Asian builders come out with their EVs expect them to be cheaper and just as good on stats. Plus they have a lineup for all types riders. Already showing off electric dirt bikes for younger people. Hope the best for HD but with their lineup I can see a very expensive touring bike if they survive.
Sorry to leave you hanging Mac Mike. I think you answered your own question. The auto industry is starting to make fleets of electric vehicles because they are being forced to do so by regulations, incentivized by tax breaks… as you noted. Right now, the cost of hydrocarbons (crude oil) is way too low to make electric a voluntary decision by the big automakers ($2/gallon where I live). Electric is good PR, sure. And the environmentalist types, like me, eat that up. But if you can make $5,000 profit on a technology you're already producing vs $2,000 on something requiring a lot of R&D ($), risk (more $)…, where's the real incentive? When a gallon of gas hits the $5 mark, that’s when most economists have predicted a major shift in manufacturing away from gasoline-based vehicles. Until then, it’s not cost feasible for the general public.
As for BMW putting off the best competitor to the Livewire, it's curious. The 6/600 series was their first full drive-by-wire auto (lots and lots of R&D, $$$), and it was buggy for a couple years after release. New technology like the Livewire is hard to get right ($$$). No doubt that’s why H-D wisely took five years to develop it.
As for the Asian world, they ride electric scooters like no place on earth. They have the technology, but not the market for something as nice as the Livewire. Samsung built H-D a great “battery,” China threw in some nice electronics, but the general Asian population are not able to afford the bike. Asia has been the leader in electric 2 wheeled vehicles for a long time, but I don’t expect them to compete with the Livewire anytime soon. But they most certainly helped build it.
As for BMW putting off the best competitor to the Livewire, it's curious. The 6/600 series was their first full drive-by-wire auto (lots and lots of R&D, $$$), and it was buggy for a couple years after release. New technology like the Livewire is hard to get right ($$$). No doubt that’s why H-D wisely took five years to develop it.
As for the Asian world, they ride electric scooters like no place on earth. They have the technology, but not the market for something as nice as the Livewire. Samsung built H-D a great “battery,” China threw in some nice electronics, but the general Asian population are not able to afford the bike. Asia has been the leader in electric 2 wheeled vehicles for a long time, but I don’t expect them to compete with the Livewire anytime soon. But they most certainly helped build it.
As for the doom and gloom with H-D's future, I don't agree. I expect changes, but not a conclusion.
The only way for HD to survive is to concentrate on better ICE bikes and lower price on such bikes. I don't see that happening anytime soon so my outlook on the MoCo is not good. I wish them the best as the only motorcycles I've owned over the years are HD.
As for the oil industry delaying future EVs I don't believe in that either. Ford announced the MME last November, had already invested 500M in Rivian and had already invested their 11.5B in EV technology. GM is on the same path to EVs also. Is it cost feasible for the general public?The best selling vehicle in the US for over 40 years has been the Ford F-150. Let me tell you they are not cheap.The Mustang Mach-E will have a price range of 40 to 60K. I've seen F-150s over that range.I think the biggest drawback right now is the pandemic and it's affect on the world economy.
Bottom-line for HD? It does not look good for their overpriced motorcycles of any kind during this tough time in history.
As for the oil industry delaying future EVs I don't believe in that either. Ford announced the MME last November, had already invested 500M in Rivian and had already invested their 11.5B in EV technology. GM is on the same path to EVs also. Is it cost feasible for the general public?The best selling vehicle in the US for over 40 years has been the Ford F-150. Let me tell you they are not cheap.The Mustang Mach-E will have a price range of 40 to 60K. I've seen F-150s over that range.I think the biggest drawback right now is the pandemic and it's affect on the world economy.
Bottom-line for HD? It does not look good for their overpriced motorcycles of any kind during this tough time in history.
I try to remember what Mark Twain used to say - "I've had a lot of problems in my life, and most of them never happened."
This will be my 7th Harley and my 26th motorcycle and most of everything I was told would happen to me and my investment (from a Puch scooter to a Suzy 90, 125, 185, then watercooled Suzys, then a couple of Yamahas, then a Kwaka 900 and so on through the years... ) never happened.
I guess we'll find out with the passage of time!
This will be my 7th Harley and my 26th motorcycle and most of everything I was told would happen to me and my investment (from a Puch scooter to a Suzy 90, 125, 185, then watercooled Suzys, then a couple of Yamahas, then a Kwaka 900 and so on through the years... ) never happened.
I guess we'll find out with the passage of time!
Helping the Livewire cause...
The National Science Foundation has awarded Utah State University (USU) a five-year, $26 million grant, renewable to 10-year, $50.6 million, to develop an international research center dedicated to advancing sustainable, electrified transportation. The center is expected to raise more than $200 million over the next decade in government and industry support. The grant establishes an Engineering Research Center focused on developing new infrastructure that facilitates widespread adoption of electric vehicles. The center is named ASPIRE — Advancing Sustainability through Powered Infrastructure for Roadway Electrification.
The National Science Foundation has awarded Utah State University (USU) a five-year, $26 million grant, renewable to 10-year, $50.6 million, to develop an international research center dedicated to advancing sustainable, electrified transportation. The center is expected to raise more than $200 million over the next decade in government and industry support. The grant establishes an Engineering Research Center focused on developing new infrastructure that facilitates widespread adoption of electric vehicles. The center is named ASPIRE — Advancing Sustainability through Powered Infrastructure for Roadway Electrification.
The Harley-Davidson LiveWire Is Great, But the Charging Infrastructure Is Not
Harley's electric motorcycle is brilliant, but it's going to take a while for America's charging systems to catch up.
www.roadandtrack.com
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