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I watched your review. Thanks for posting. You bring up some of the points I thought about when making a purchasing decision to buy one. I had followed Zeros for years but they never really built anything that made me want to pull the trigger. The latest version was almost there for me and their fast L2 charging is a huge plus for me and more important than L3 for how I use it.

Glad to hear you are getting along well with it and doesn't seem like any major issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I watched your review. Thanks for posting. You bring up some of the points I thought about when making a purchasing decision to buy one. I had followed Zeros for years but they never really built anything that made me want to pull the trigger. The latest version was almost there for me and their fast L2 charging is a huge plus for me and more important than L3 for how I use it.

Glad to hear you are getting along well with it and doesn't seem like any major issues.
Thanks! Yeah, the failing chargers and lack of features really pushed me over in getting rid of the DSR. The LiveWire had all the features I really wanted, and once L3 came in my area - it was time to get the LIvewire. Although there have been a few times I wished it had a more capable L2 charger, I don't know if I would want to compromise anymore weight for a feature I would use sparingly (I know there are some that would need L2 in their area).
 

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L3 can be really hand ASSUMING they actual work on your trip. Additionally they need to be available. Then you have to factor in HD's acceptable usage of only using them 1 out of ever 4 charges with the others being on L1. So this limits the usefulness even more and elevates the need for faster L2 even more.

If you don't want to hasten battery degradation, if you were on a trip, you could start out the day fully charged from L1. You ride max 130 miles (if not on the highway and leaving a little buffer) then L3 for an hour. Ride another hypothetical 130 miles. So max miles you could put in on a day would be about 260 and then you'd have to do at least 2 x L1 charges before you should go back to L3 to maintain a 3:1 ratio. Then realistically after that next L3 you would need to return to L1 again.

So it doesn't make a very practical touring mount unless you are either going to abuse the battery through a lot of L3 charging or really take your time with a lot of L1 charging interspersed which is slow AF on this bike (and most any EV).

From what I understand so far is the bike phones home its battery info. It would be very easy if you overused the L3 charging for the battery manufacturer to know it and potentially dismiss any warranty claims as a result of not following their recommendations. I always assume big brother is watching.

Did you experiment with any different windscreens? That should be an easy increase in range.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
L3 can be really hand ASSUMING they actual work on your trip. Additionally they need to be available. Then you have to factor in HD's acceptable usage of only using them 1 out of ever 4 charges with the others being on L1. So this limits the usefulness even more and elevates the need for faster L2 even more.

If you don't want to hasten battery degradation, if you were on a trip, you could start out the day fully charged from L1. You ride max 130 miles (if not on the highway and leaving a little buffer) then L3 for an hour. Ride another hypothetical 130 miles. So max miles you could put in on a day would be about 260 and then you'd have to do at least 2 x L1 charges before you should go back to L3 to maintain a 3:1 ratio. Then realistically after that next L3 you would need to return to L1 again.

So it doesn't make a very practical touring mount unless you are either going to abuse the battery through a lot of L3 charging or really take your time with a lot of L1 charging interspersed which is slow AF on this bike (and most any EV).

From what I understand so far is the bike phones home its battery info. It would be very easy if you overused the L3 charging for the battery manufacturer to know it and potentially dismiss any warranty claims as a result of not following their recommendations. I always assume big brother is watching.

Did you experiment with any different windscreens? That should be an easy increase in range.
Well the great thing about apps like Plugshare is that you can check CCS stations for operability before taking a trip. I recently completed a 2500 mile tour on the LiveWire, and only fast charged a few times each day - rarely a full charge at that, so it doesn't really compromise the health of the battery. I averaged 290-390 miles a day. HD and Samsung went to great lengths to build this motorcycle, they put many failsafes in place to prevent the battery from being damaged by CCS fast charging. If anything, the battery was over engineered to maintain health through fast charging.
 

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My concern is their stating the ratio of L3 to L1 charging. It gives them an out on the warranty if you exceed those ratios. I haven't seen any real data points yet to see what typical battery degradation is on the Livewire.

I never use L3 charging to top off my EVs anyway. The charge rate just tapers off to much and it becomes a waste of time and is harder on the batteries as well. I've used Plugshare and a bunch of other apps. The problem can be the info isn't always up to date while generally good. The CCS network isn't near as robust or as well maintained as the Tesla supercharger network.

A great resource to understand LiON batteries is the info on Battery University.


Lithium Ion starts in the BU-80x area.
This one is good to start with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My concern is their stating the ratio of L3 to L1 charging. It gives them an out on the warranty if you exceed those ratios. I haven't seen any real data points yet to see what typical battery degradation is on the Livewire.

I never use L3 charging to top off my EVs anyway. The charge rate just tapers off to much and it becomes a waste of time and is harder on the batteries as well. I've used Plugshare and a bunch of other apps. The problem can be the info isn't always up to date while generally good. The CCS network isn't near as robust or as well maintained as the Tesla supercharger network.

A great resource to understand LiON batteries is the info on Battery University.


Lithium Ion starts in the BU-80x area.
This one is good to start with.
that's a cool source for info, thanks! Checking it out
 

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Yes, it is filled with a lot of great info. Helps you understand how to manage your batteries better and increase their lifespan. It is the reason I keep my Tesla around 50% SoC. It is also why I am interested in fast L2 charging. I can keep my bike/car at a lower SoC, thus reducing degradation, yet quickly increase it enough for any need I have that 50% SoC won't cover.

Keeping your LiON batteries at a high SoC, at high temps, is about the most destructive thing you can do. Unfortunately do to the slow charge rate, you don't have a lot of choice on the LW but to keep it at a higher SoC. Using L3 is very hard on the batteries so that isn't an option and I don't have an L3 charger in my garage but I do have a 50A and 60A 220V circuit I could use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yes, it is filled with a lot of great info. Helps you understand how to manage your batteries better and increase their lifespan. It is the reason I keep my Tesla around 50% SoC. It is also why I am interested in fast L2 charging. I can keep my bike/car at a lower SoC, thus reducing degradation, yet quickly increase it enough for any need I have that 50% SoC won't cover.

Keeping your LiON batteries at a high SoC, at high temps, is about the most destructive thing you can do. Unfortunately do to the slow charge rate, you don't have a lot of choice on the LW but to keep it at a higher SoC. Using L3 is very hard on the batteries so that isn't an option and I don't have an L3 charger in my garage but I do have a 50A and 60A 220V circuit I could use.
As I understand it, 100% SoC is not actually 100% on the Livewire. Padding was built into the SoC to prevent degradation due to keep the SoC fully charged. I've seen others state that 100% SoC reported by the bike is actually around 80-90%. I'm not sure if there is padding on the lower end, however it could have it there as well.

When HD prepped the two Livewires for Long Way Up, they asked Samsung to modify the software to allow the bikes to dip into the padding, giving them additional range. Makes sense as the RESS is 15.5kW with only 13.6kW nominal. Even the user manual states to leave the bike plugged in when not in use, but only up to 30 days. The manual isn't exactly clear with the 4:1 ratio. I'd have to find the thread, but someone claims to have spoken to one of the engineers at H-D and they said it was 4 fast full cycle charges for every 1 slow charge at full cycle. Because of the padding built in, thermal protection and the ramping speeds while fast charging - it would seem that fast charging isn't completely detrimental to the bike.

I would love to get the accurate story from HD/Samsung on the issue though.
 

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The problem is you don't have to get to 100% to have issues. Very few companies give you complete access to min/max voltage of the cells or a true 0-100%. It would be helpful to know more about the pack. If 13.6 nominal vs 15.5 still puts it about 88%. An interesting read is the Do's and Don'ts from Battery U. Last column is the lithium ion cells.


I've been searching for info on the RESS in more detail without much look. It is really important to know this info if you want to manage the pack correctly. I was talking with a member of another forum who only supercharges (L3) his Tesla Model 3 as he lives in an apartment and already had 6% pack degradation in the first 6 months of ownership and less than 6k miles.

It isn't like the LW (or most any electric motorcycle) has range to spare. Even thinking about 19% degradation over 5 years as being acceptable to HD and that would really throw a spanner into the works for my current usage. That would still be within warranty specs. Knock almost 20% off the range and you basically have a fast Sondors Metacycle.

What I haven't seen anywhere is how much, if any, the performance degrades based on SoC. I've extensive testing on my Tesla to get an idea of the performance at lower SoC. On my Model S, even at 30% SoC, I've only lost about 0.1 seconds for the 0-60 time. My quarter mile has only fallen about .2 seconds. I don't really see any real fall off of acceleration until I am below 20%.

Even with at 30% charge I can still make an easy 100 miles on the highway at 75-80 mph and running the AC. So its is pretty easy to keep it at a low SoC to minimize degradation, still have good performance and decent range. With my fast L2 charging at home I can easily add about 30 miles of range per hour given the way I drive it.

That is why I am really sad that pretty much nobody but Zero offers decent L2 charging. The Zeros I test rode just died when their charge level was low. I've heard the LW stays pretty strong but never seen it actually quantified at different charge levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The problem is you don't have to get to 100% to have issues. Very few companies give you complete access to min/max voltage of the cells or a true 0-100%. It would be helpful to know more about the pack. If 13.6 nominal vs 15.5 still puts it about 88%. An interesting read is the Do's and Don'ts from Battery U. Last column is the lithium ion cells.


I've been searching for info on the RESS in more detail without much look. It is really important to know this info if you want to manage the pack correctly. I was talking with a member of another forum who only supercharges (L3) his Tesla Model 3 as he lives in an apartment and already had 6% pack degradation in the first 6 months of ownership and less than 6k miles.

It isn't like the LW (or most any electric motorcycle) has range to spare. Even thinking about 19% degradation over 5 years as being acceptable to HD and that would really throw a spanner into the works for my current usage. That would still be within warranty specs. Knock almost 20% off the range and you basically have a fast Sondors Metacycle.

What I haven't seen anywhere is how much, if any, the performance degrades based on SoC. I've extensive testing on my Tesla to get an idea of the performance at lower SoC. On my Model S, even at 30% SoC, I've only lost about 0.1 seconds for the 0-60 time. My quarter mile has only fallen about .2 seconds. I don't really see any real fall off of acceleration until I am below 20%.

Even with at 30% charge I can still make an easy 100 miles on the highway at 75-80 mph and running the AC. So its is pretty easy to keep it at a low SoC to minimize degradation, still have good performance and decent range. With my fast L2 charging at home I can easily add about 30 miles of range per hour given the way I drive it.

That is why I am really sad that pretty much nobody but Zero offers decent L2 charging. The Zeros I test rode just died when their charge level was low. I've heard the LW stays pretty strong but never seen it actually quantified at different charge levels.
Yep, good points. It is frustrating that there isn't additional info on the RESS. At best, all you can do is follow the manual. It's clear that slow charging the LW is the safest way to maintain a longer lifespan for the battery. I'm pretty notorious for taking my LW all the way to (or very close to) 0%. At over 16K miles now, I wonder how this will affect it. It is currently with my dealer getting checked out, it recently started shutting down at 5%. I'm hoping that it's just a cell balancing issue, as I haven't put it at 100% in a few weeks. It also stopped at 99% as well. After so many miles, first that he SoC has been an issue. But again, I never left it on the EVSE charger with daily riding - which seems that I should have been doing that.
 

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I've personally never worried about stopping a charge before 100%. I just got my 20k service done, and the dealer diagnostics didn't reveal any problems with the RESS or the original 12v battery. I fast charge constantly while on the road, then use level 2 the vast majority of the time just because it's while I'm at home of staying somewhere overnight. While slow charging, I almost always charge up to 100% just so I have a full tank when I'm ready to go out again. I never let the bike sit for more than a few days without riding, but also regularly run it down to 5% or less. I've never noticed any degradation of the range since I've had the bike. Just my experience.
One thing I am mindful of is always unplugging the bike after it reaches 100%, or at least when I get up in the morning. Not for any reason other than my own OCD.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've personally never worried about stopping a charge before 100%. I just got my 20k service done, and the dealer diagnostics didn't reveal any problems with the RESS or the original 12v battery. I fast charge constantly while on the road, then use level 2 the vast majority of the time just because it's while I'm at home of staying somewhere overnight. While slow charging, I almost always charge up to 100% just so I have a full tank when I'm ready to go out again. I never let the bike sit for more than a few days without riding, but also regularly run it down to 5% or less. I've never noticed any degradation of the range since I've had the bike. Just my experience.
Good to know and thanks for sharing. Not sure why mine shuts down at 5% now, although it has only happened twice. I"m really thinking (and hoping) that it's just a cell balancing issue and I need to leave it plugged in. I ride just about everyday and should just be leaving it plugged in according to the manual.

With your Level 2 home charger, what's the time difference (if any) in charging versus the EVSE? I believe the 240v delivers a more constant charge, whereas the EVSE on a 110v outlet tends to fluctuate in amperage and doesn't always get a true 1kW/h charge
 

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I've only charged all the way with the EVSE a handful of times, but I've noticed that it will shut down a couple times to cool off, taking a couple hours more than usual. It appears that the plug draws 120v at around 15 amps, converting it to 240v at 3-4 amps. The H-D app always shows something like 254 volts at 3 or 4 amps, making me think that the bike sees no difference between the EVSE and level 2. The only difference I've seen is that shutdown feature with the EVSE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I've only charged all the way with the EVSE a handful of times, but I've noticed that it will shut down a couple times to cool off, taking a couple hours more than usual. It appears that the plug draws 120v at around 15 amps, converting it to 240v at 3-4 amps. The H-D app always shows something like 254 volts at 3 or 4 amps, making me think that the bike sees no difference between the EVSE and level 2. The only difference I've seen is that shutdown feature with the EVSE.
Ahh that does make sense with the app reporting the low amperage. I've only seen higher amps at Level 2 stations, I would expect maybe an hour or so faster than the EVSE - but never considered that it converts it to 240
 
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