[Wavshrdr]

I watched your review. Thanks for posting. You bring up some of the points I thought about when making a purchasing decision to buy one. I had followed Zeros for years but they never really built anything that made me want to pull the trigger. The latest version was almost there for me and their fast L2 charging is a huge plus for me and more important than L3 for how I use it.

Glad to hear you are getting along well with it and doesn't seem like any major issues.

 

[Wavshrdr]

L3 can be really hand ASSUMING they actual work on your trip. Additionally they need to be available. Then you have to factor in HD's acceptable usage of only using them 1 out of ever 4 charges with the others being on L1. So this limits the usefulness even more and elevates the need for faster L2 even more.

If you don't want to hasten battery degradation, if you were on a trip, you could start out the day fully charged from L1. You ride max 130 miles (if not on the highway and leaving a little buffer) then L3 for an hour. Ride another hypothetical 130 miles. So max miles you could put in on a day would be about 260 and then you'd have to do at least 2 x L1 charges before you should go back to L3 to maintain a 3:1 ratio. Then realistically after that next L3 you would need to return to L1 again.

So it doesn't make a very practical touring mount unless you are either going to abuse the battery through a lot of L3 charging or really take your time with a lot of L1 charging interspersed which is slow AF on this bike (and most any EV).

From what I understand so far is the bike phones home its battery info. It would be very easy if you overused the L3 charging for the battery manufacturer to know it and potentially dismiss any warranty claims as a result of not following their recommendations. I always assume big brother is watching.

Did you experiment with any different windscreens? That should be an easy increase in range.

 

[Wavshrdr]

My concern is their stating the ratio of L3 to L1 charging. It gives them an out on the warranty if you exceed those ratios. I haven't seen any real data points yet to see what typical battery degradation is on the Livewire.

I never use L3 charging to top off my EVs anyway. The charge rate just tapers off to much and it becomes a waste of time and is harder on the batteries as well. I've used Plugshare and a bunch of other apps. The problem can be the info isn't always up to date while generally good. The CCS network isn't near as robust or as well maintained as the Tesla supercharger network.

A great resource to understand LiON batteries is the info on Battery University.

Learn About Batteries

Battery University™ is a free educational website offering hands-on battery information.

batteryuniversity.com

Lithium Ion starts in the BU-80x area.
This one is good to start with.

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

 

[Wavshrdr]

Yes, it is filled with a lot of great info. Helps you understand how to manage your batteries better and increase their lifespan. It is the reason I keep my Tesla around 50% SoC. It is also why I am interested in fast L2 charging. I can keep my bike/car at a lower SoC, thus reducing degradation, yet quickly increase it enough for any need I have that 50% SoC won't cover.

Keeping your LiON batteries at a high SoC, at high temps, is about the most destructive thing you can do. Unfortunately do to the slow charge rate, you don't have a lot of choice on the LW but to keep it at a higher SoC. Using L3 is very hard on the batteries so that isn't an option and I don't have an L3 charger in my garage but I do have a 50A and 60A 220V circuit I could use.

 

[Wavshrdr]

The problem is you don't have to get to 100% to have issues. Very few companies give you complete access to min/max voltage of the cells or a true 0-100%. It would be helpful to know more about the pack. If 13.6 nominal vs 15.5 still puts it about 88%. An interesting read is the Do's and Don'ts from Battery U. Last column is the lithium ion cells.

BU-706: Summary of Do's and Don'ts

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

I've been searching for info on the RESS in more detail without much look. It is really important to know this info if you want to manage the pack correctly. I was talking with a member of another forum who only supercharges (L3) his Tesla Model 3 as he lives in an apartment and already had 6% pack degradation in the first 6 months of ownership and less than 6k miles.

It isn't like the LW (or most any electric motorcycle) has range to spare. Even thinking about 19% degradation over 5 years as being acceptable to HD and that would really throw a spanner into the works for my current usage. That would still be within warranty specs. Knock almost 20% off the range and you basically have a fast Sondors Metacycle.

What I haven't seen anywhere is how much, if any, the performance degrades based on SoC. I've extensive testing on my Tesla to get an idea of the performance at lower SoC. On my Model S, even at 30% SoC, I've only lost about 0.1 seconds for the 0-60 time. My quarter mile has only fallen about .2 seconds. I don't really see any real fall off of acceleration until I am below 20%.

Even with at 30% charge I can still make an easy 100 miles on the highway at 75-80 mph and running the AC. So its is pretty easy to keep it at a low SoC to minimize degradation, still have good performance and decent range. With my fast L2 charging at home I can easily add about 30 miles of range per hour given the way I drive it.

That is why I am really sad that pretty much nobody but Zero offers decent L2 charging. The Zeros I test rode just died when their charge level was low. I've heard the LW stays pretty strong but never seen it actually quantified at different charge levels.

 

[Wavshrdr]

I've personally never worried about stopping a charge before 100%. I just got my 20k service done, and the dealer diagnostics didn't reveal any problems with the RESS or the original 12v battery. I fast charge constantly while on the road, then use level 2 the vast majority of the time just because it's while I'm at home of staying somewhere overnight. While slow charging, I almost always charge up to 100% just so I have a full tank when I'm ready to go out again. I never let the bike sit for more than a few days without riding, but also regularly run it down to 5% or less. I've never noticed any degradation of the range since I've had the bike. Just my experience.
One thing I am mindful of is always unplugging the bike after it reaches 100%, or at least when I get up in the morning. Not for any reason other than my own OCD.

Great to hear and thanks for sharing this info. I suspect the dealer isn't doing anything to check degradation. I could be wrong given how clueless most dealerships are about EVs. Even Tesla doesn't do anything about it until you complain about it. So hopefully your aren't experiencing any degradation.

From what I've seen it might be hard to do given how the display shows range in that it seems to take into account how you last rode it. If you pretty much ride the same way and route, like commuting all the time, it might be a lot easier to tell. I would think though after 20k miles you should be able to determine if there is any significant degradation but some people are oblivious to these things or conceptually aren't aware. You seem to have a handle on that.

Given that HD allows up to 20% degradation before it invokes a warranty claim that is a lot of latitude for degradation. Tesla allows for 30% but over 8 years. A 20% on the ELW would be really bad.

@Bob_B - if you don't mind sharing, where do you live? Trying to understand if your bike is operated frequently in temps over 90F. Also good to hear about L2 charging. That was my plan and it looks like it can make for a more consistent and faster charge which to me is the biggest drawback of the ELW; its pathetic L2 charging rate.

My hope is HD actually put some thought into the charge levels so that in reality at we are only at about 80-85% actual charge state of the battery and shows 100% on the display. I also hope there is some buffer on the low end as well. This will really help with the longevity of the pack. They still screwed on the L2 charging and it seems L1 is even worse that I thought but L2 might actually get you to the rate where L1 should have been in the first place. So this has pretty much put the thought to rest of even bothering to use L1 at home. I'll just leave the charge with the bike and use my L2 connection instead. I'll add a fan to blow on the bike to help it cool while charging to allow for the quickest possible charges.

 

[Wavshrdr]

In general the slower the charging rate the better. After some point, their isn't a lot of benefit to reducing the charging rate. Like everything there is a point of diminishing returns. They could have easily double the charge rate for L2 compared to L1 and likely saw no difference in the longevity of the battery.

The L3 charging is gong to put a lot more stress on it. It would likely be less stressful to be able to top off the battery more quickly when needed with L2 than to keep it a high SoC most of the time. To have such long charge times you need to spend more time planning out your charges than it really needs to be.

I find it allows me to managed the DoD (depth of discharge) better on my other vehicles. I can keep the charge level in the midrange where it is best for the battery pack and then charge when needed but fairly quickly.

The LW is sort of like a Ford Focus electric we had. To really use it, required topping it off every day and running it almost to 0. By the time the car hit 100k mile it had lost over 45% of the battery capacity. As it degraded, it was a self defeating cycle as less range required using more of the remaining available range. It was looking fairly good up through 50k miles and then I saw the decline accelerate after that.

On an avg day up to 50k mile, we'd use about 60-70% of the charge. Then by 60k it was creeping up to 65-75% with same usage. By now you can see where this is going. Increasing the DoD increases the degradation of the battery more quickly. So things may look good early on but you learn quickly in the outer years. Similar issue with a BMW i3 as well.

On my Teslas with L1 it would take about 100 hours for the 3 and about 135 for the S. I haven't timed it but that was about the rate it seemed to charge when I watched them for a few hours on L1. Definitely not the way to go. Definitely helps to have 48 amps on the wall charger when doing L2. I can charge it up totally in about 9-10 hours.