[andyman]

This thread is not about bashing the brand or live wire but my point of view from a potential new buyer on why I won't be buying one. My positives for the bike is I really like the styling. I love that it was a harley branded motorcycle with their name of the bike. The seating was perfect for me, the styling, the overall looks. I didn't test drive one but I did sit on one and its a beauty. I would have paid cash today to take it home without blinking an eye if not for a couple deal breakers.

1. Unreliable charging. I've heard this from several videos, and many forum post. I can't have a bike that simply has unreliable charging. Thats stupid for the amount I'm paying. I don't need an app that tells me it is not charging. If I plug it in, I expect it to charge. Period. After all it is an electric bike.

2. No Level 2 charger. Everybody else has it, I've got 220. Why no level 2 charge? I'd pay for this if it was an option but Other mfg have level 2 charging without paying extra. Reminder, this is an electric motorcycle. Asking me to go to a level 3 charge station and wait an hour is silly. I mean sure its nice to have but I have a 220 outlet right next to the bike!

3. 12v battery? Are you serious.. This thing has a huge battery. A simple DC-DC converter should take care of any 12V needs. I've read all too many stories on this forum now about the OBC being bad or 12v battery is bad.. But mostly it seems like they just don't know what the issue is. Why complicate things, simply put the DC-DC back on the bike and skip the 12V battery. That 12V battery can render the bike dead and unreliable. Now I have to put a battery tender on an electric motorcycle? Ok if not tender then I must leave the level 1 charge cable connected to the bike when not using it ?? Rediculous.


The bike has so many potential issues that as a new potential buyer its just not worth taking the risk. Even if the dealer network is superb. Even if I lived next door to one. Why am I spending all this money just to have my bike at the dealership fixing problems that shouldn't even be issue. Anyway thats my minor rant, hopefully it helps some people. I will revisit purchasing a livewire if these things ever get sorted out. Hopefully it doesn't get discontinued. But with honda, yamaha, etc coming onboard the electric band wagon, livewire better get their act together quickly. As for me, I'm about to put a deposit down on an Energetica ego. Actually any energetica I can get my hands on really. I just need a beautiful and reliable bike. The live wire atleast got the looks correct.. Now it just needs to execute on being a reliable bike.

 

[andyman]

Come to think of it... Livewire kind of reminds me of the Evinrude outboard motors for boats.. Especially the latest G2 line. Great motor, fast off the line, revolutionary. Looks awesome. But most forum post about the outboard is of people having to bring it back to the dealership for service or repair after leaving them stranded on the water. No one could pinpoint why but usually the fix revolves around replacing the block, replacing the injectors, computers, etc. Basically you either got a great engine or a lemon. 50/50 chance almost. But bottom line, engine went back to dealership often. Then Evinrude decided to screw everyone and just ended production of all outboards and they just exited the business. Poor execution on a great product. I feel there are simularities here. Hopefully livewire doesn't exit the business also and file chapter 11.

 

[Tuffers88]

Thanks I think...

I know you mean no offense but you're on a forum of mainly people who own Livewires and are aware of the pros and cons of ownership.

I've owned EV's for 6 years.. they're new tech and you have to remember that.. I like you have gone into so much effort in sharing all the negatives based on not even riding the bike.. but having had mine a little while now I don't see the point in level 2 charging for it.. I ride for 2 hours for some fun then stop near a fast charger.. have some lunch and blast back.

I went out with some gas sports bikes for 5 hours around some mountain roads and the LW did everything their bikes did more.. Smoother, faster, easier to ride in traffic, less disturbing through the small towns and way more attention than any car or bike I've owned.

My favourite quote from your non buying self..
"I can't have a bike that simply has unreliable charging. Thats stupid for the amount I'm paying"

Stay safe

** all the above is based on facts and experience riding and owning a LW

 

[Eric]

After 9 months and 3000 km, for my personal case:
1 )Never happend
2) Level1 = a night of charging or if you can, a day at the office, 180km of autonomy so not having level 2 is not an every day life problem is just because you are comparing with EV cars
3) 12V dead never happend

Does Harley have had bad and good batchs of production ?

Eric

 

[Menoche]

Hmmm the 12V battery issue is not a « Livewire » issue per say, but ALL electric cars have the same issue. If the 12V batterie in the Bolt or Leaf is dead.. you can’t use the car… if I recall correctly, it is a transport regulation requirement to have a 12V indépendant circuit for safety items but I don’t remember where I read that :-(

 

[Menoche]

Found this article:

https://jalopnik.com/why-electric-cars-still-use-ordinary-12-volt-batteries-1847209291

explanation: battery operated véhicule need a cut off in case of emergency to cut high current from the véhicule circuits. To operate the « breaker » or « contactor » has to be operated by a external source which is less dangerous in terms of current discharges, thus the traditional 12V battery to manage the contactor or the main véhicule relay if you like.

 

[andyman]

Thanks Menoche. I will have to review energica to see if they also use 12v battery. I really hate maintaining that 12v battery even in my other cars/bikes. My vehicles tend to sit a long time so its hard to keep them in stored mode. It wouldn't be so much of an issue except I just read others with the issue.. I will continue to research. I've only started looking at electric anything since monday so this is all new to me. thanks for the patience.

 

[Eric]

So, if I'm listening to those exchanges, the problem occured when the ratio numbers of driver / number of vehicule is to low... a big issue....

 

[Oldun]

"This thread is not about bashing the brand or live wire..."

"...my point of view on why I won't be buying one."

So don't buy one. Problem solved!

 

[BHigerd]

I second that, Oldun.
Andyman, no problem what you decide as far as I go.
It's a strange relationship I (and maybe many) have with their Livewires. To ponder practicality, risks with new technology (charging problems you noted some are having), it's future... it can be frustrating. It's not the ride on paper most would consider.
Then you climb on one, and like the ex-Harley mechanic on this site wrote, fit and finish are amazing. And dang is it fun. On curvy roads it's WAY better than a roller coaster.
As for acceleration, it's a rocket. It's awesome, period.
Then there's the practicality...
Then back to the fun...
And back and forth...
If you get caught on this mouse wheel, you'll understand. Hard to get off once on.

 

[Menoche]

hmmm new technology indeed.
In the past 5 years, I made it a personal mandate to always give back feedback to manufacturers.... not only did I get freebies because of the valuable feedback they could not get in their testing phase but end users always come up with ways to use product they don't think of in design phase.
Livewire is no exception to this... the issues with the IM, charging modules are not exception either.
These technology need our feedback and in put, not just our complaints on public forums
I've had mine for only 2 weeks and already have a full page of comments for the engineers if I can find a way to reach them...
'nough said... riding time!!

 

[BHigerd]

It's true that feedback can be a profound to engineers. I'm one, and addressing feedback is a necessary part of my job.
How to reach the H-D EV/Livewire engineering group? That seems to be part of the problem.

 

[Frank]

This thread is not about bashing the brand or live wire but my point of view from a potential new buyer on why I won't be buying one. My positives for the bike is I really like the styling. I love that it was a harley branded motorcycle with their name of the bike. The seating was perfect for me, the styling, the overall looks. I didn't test drive one but I did sit on one and its a beauty. I would have paid cash today to take it home without blinking an eye if not for a couple deal breakers.

1. Unreliable charging. I've heard this from several videos, and many forum post. I can't have a bike that simply has unreliable charging. Thats stupid for the amount I'm paying. I don't need an app that tells me it is not charging. If I plug it in, I expect it to charge. Period. After all it is an electric bike.

2. No Level 2 charger. Everybody else has it, I've got 220. Why no level 2 charge? I'd pay for this if it was an option but Other mfg have level 2 charging without paying extra. Reminder, this is an electric motorcycle. Asking me to go to a level 3 charge station and wait an hour is silly. I mean sure its nice to have but I have a 220 outlet right next to the bike!

3. 12v battery? Are you serious.. This thing has a huge battery. A simple DC-DC converter should take care of any 12V needs. I've read all too many stories on this forum now about the OBC being bad or 12v battery is bad.. But mostly it seems like they just don't know what the issue is. Why complicate things, simply put the DC-DC back on the bike and skip the 12V battery. That 12V battery can render the bike dead and unreliable. Now I have to put a battery tender on an electric motorcycle? Ok if not tender then I must leave the level 1 charge cable connected to the bike when not using it ?? Rediculous.


The bike has so many potential issues that as a new potential buyer its just not worth taking the risk. Even if the dealer network is superb. Even if I lived next door to one. Why am I spending all this money just to have my bike at the dealership fixing problems that shouldn't even be issue. Anyway thats my minor rant, hopefully it helps some people. I will revisit purchasing a livewire if these things ever get sorted out. Hopefully it doesn't get discontinued. But with honda, yamaha, etc coming onboard the electric band wagon, livewire better get their act together quickly. As for me, I'm about to put a deposit down on an Energetica ego. Actually any energetica I can get my hands on really. I just need a beautiful and reliable bike. The live wire atleast got the looks correct.. Now it just needs to execute on being a reliable bike.

This thread is not about bashing the brand or live wire but my point of view from a potential new buyer on why I won't be buying one. My positives for the bike is I really like the styling. I love that it was a harley branded motorcycle with their name of the bike. The seating was perfect for me, the styling, the overall looks. I didn't test drive one but I did sit on one and its a beauty. I would have paid cash today to take it home without blinking an eye if not for a couple deal breakers.

1. Unreliable charging. I've heard this from several videos, and many forum post. I can't have a bike that simply has unreliable charging. Thats stupid for the amount I'm paying. I don't need an app that tells me it is not charging. If I plug it in, I expect it to charge. Period. After all it is an electric bike.

2. No Level 2 charger. Everybody else has it, I've got 220. Why no level 2 charge? I'd pay for this if it was an option but Other mfg have level 2 charging without paying extra. Reminder, this is an electric motorcycle. Asking me to go to a level 3 charge station and wait an hour is silly. I mean sure its nice to have but I have a 220 outlet right next to the bike!

3. 12v battery? Are you serious.. This thing has a huge battery. A simple DC-DC converter should take care of any 12V needs. I've read all too many stories on this forum now about the OBC being bad or 12v battery is bad.. But mostly it seems like they just don't know what the issue is. Why complicate things, simply put the DC-DC back on the bike and skip the 12V battery. That 12V battery can render the bike dead and unreliable. Now I have to put a battery tender on an electric motorcycle? Ok if not tender then I must leave the level 1 charge cable connected to the bike when not using it ?? Rediculous.


The bike has so many potential issues that as a new potential buyer its just not worth taking the risk. Even if the dealer network is superb. Even if I lived next door to one. Why am I spending all this money just to have my bike at the dealership fixing problems that shouldn't even be issue. Anyway thats my minor rant, hopefully it helps some people. I will revisit purchasing a livewire if these things ever get sorted out. Hopefully it doesn't get discontinued. But with honda, yamaha, etc coming onboard the electric band wagon, livewire better get their act together quickly. As for me, I'm about to put a deposit down on an Energetica ego. Actually any energetica I can get my hands on really. I just need a beautiful and reliable bike. The live wire atleast got the looks correct.. Now it just needs to execute on being a reliable bike.

One year and 3500 miles so far and I never needed to charge at home faster than the Level 1 provides. Better for the life of the battery in any case and with any bike (all E-vehicles have fast charge stress/wear limitations with current available battery technology). There are technical reasons for everything, like the 12V battery - again, all good here for me, and charging has been perfect for a year - very reliable. I believe all challenges are irritating but typical growing pains are to be expected when you purchase any first generation, industry leading product. I understand your valid concerns. However, nothing for me that I have experienced or read - can convince me that the total experience and thrill of the Livewire is anything short of brilliant and worth the investment and associated risks. You admitted missing one extremely important part of the decision making process - riding it. And with that, I believe you underestimated the Livewire experience. For all the folks out there like me, who return home from a ride with massive smiles on our faces, its that experience - that sensation of instant thrust and even sound that is a "cant get enough, non-stop thrill ala Tron Light Cycle". So, for me and the other happy owners with actual LW experience, It overrides - so to speak, all the concerns you shared.

 

[BHigerd]

Frank, well put. And you are so right about slow charging versus fast charging any battery. There are inherent risks, like the bike that was repeatedly fast charged last Daytona Bike Week and caught fire after the 7th to 20th time they charged it that week/weekend. I suspect the Florida heat and that bike being a dealer bike people were riding as much as possible using repeated fast charges played a huge role in why the battery caught fire.

I'm also in the same boat with around 3,000 miles on my LW and no issues, just fun. But I get how the Livewire is less a financial investment and more a quality of life investment.

On a good note, the Livewire is cheaper than going to the hospital with a fractured nose and concussion. And no, it was not a motorcycle accident ... or a fight.

 

[tcypher]

ㅤ ㅤㅤ

 

[BHigerd]

I suspect that the 4:1 charging ratio spares your battery tremendously from issues associated with constant fast charging (any battery). I wish I fully understood the chemistry taking place in the erosion of a Lithium Ion battery, but after 5 years of R&D with feedback from the battery maker (Samsung), H-D presumably figured out what these batteries can take.
They sure got a whole lot right making the Livewire!

 

[tcypher]

ㅤ ㅤㅤ

 

[BHigerd]

A battery in the future that incorporates new technology merely needs to fit in the Livewire. Hope Samsung (or whomever) gives us that.
Meanwhile, I'm following the 30%-70% guidance received. Easy with WiFi/phone controlled 1800W outlets.

As for that battery that caught fire in Daytona, I could just imagine the engineers in PA being asked to run that kind of simulation. Charge it non-stop for one of Florida's biggest known parties, race it around in the humid heat, do it again and again and again... And make sure to race it around in between charges. Like a H-D engineer is that stupid. Last to ride it was lucky to live.

Tcypher, I think your battery will make it much further than that one in Daytona.
(But the news story has to match the insurance claim. Just routine use, nothing out of the ordinary... Was a nice day and was out for an easy ride...)

 

[tcypher]

ㅤ ㅤㅤ

 

[BHigerd]

I suspect R&D included some intense safety testing. And like what you described. A controlled test with a dyno, inflicted hardship...
Just no way to compete with 200,000+ drunk motorcyclists in the heat of Florida. No test can simulate that.
I think those guys made the bike go supercritical. We're all lucky to be alive.